Brené on the anatomy of trust (2023)

Brené Brown:Hi everyone, I'm Brene Brown. And this isunlock us.


BB:I'm sitting here with Barrett. How's it going?

Barret Guillen:Hi.

BB:We played pickleball this morning.

BG:I know. I'm really in my game this morning. [Laugh]

BB:Why? We won the first.

BG:I think I was really distracted so I thought I don't like being distracted, I want to be in the game.

BB:Yes, you can not get distracted and be good at pickleball.

BG:no I figured I would bypass the bar and ATP and hit my leg instead. [Laughter] And so I was distracted.

BB:So around the post is post whatever or pole, but around the post it's like someone hitting it so far that you don't have to hit it back over the net, you can actually go around the post and back in go to their place. And I thought it was great that you tried it today.

BG:I hit my leg, there's nothing great about hitting my leg.


BB:She hit her leg with...

BG:I said, "ATP, ATP. Ouch."

BB:She hit her leg with the paddle, right, because you have to do a bit of fancy footwork to make that work, they make it look so easy, the pros do it, but what was really funny was she said... [ Laughter] They said, "I hurt my leg and I hurt my ego." [Laughter]


BB:A bit of the Brown family's competitiveness this morning.

BG:speak for yourself

BB:no I speak for both of us.

BB:Okay, it was a full fall, yes?


BB:So I went straight from writingAtlas of the Heartin preparation for HBO. Lots of podcasts. Let me tell you something they used to say, I heard this when I first wrote a book, they said, 'The work begins when you turn the book in', and I said, 'Oh fuck you . I say, 'That can't be true because I... that does...' And it's actually kind of true. A lot of strange things happen after you turn in a book. So it was very busy and crazy, but I also played... I protected my pickleball time.

BG:Yes you did. You did a good job. No joke.

BB:I almost had to make it non-negotiable and I play a lot of pickleball and I'm still grumpy and tired so can you imagine?

BG:[laughs] No.


(Video) Anatomy of Trust (abridged)

BB:Not polite. And oh my god, it's vacation time now.

BG:Oh dear God. How?

BB:I don't know how it happened but let me just tell you when is this podcast coming out? It's just around the corner, right?

BG:Yes, this podcast will be out on Wednesday. [Giggle]

BB:What's wrong with you?

BG:I'm like every one of these podcasts is Wednesday.


BB:We're all drunk.

BG:Run it according to the calendar.

BB:It comes out on Thursday the 24th, right?

BG:It's Wednesday, yes, November 24th.

BB:It's coming on a Wednesday. It comes out...

BG:Here we are all.

BB:yes, here we are Yes. It comes out on the 24th. And I don't even know why that was relevant, but I thought there was going to be something important. Oh, it will... If you're in the US, it's Thanksgiving week, it's Fall Break for us. And let me just tell you one thing, hold on to your Christmas cards. To the right? I don't want to get a holiday card from you in the next week. It is exaggerated. It's rude, it's not thoughtful. Makes the rest of us feel like shit. Yes, I would like it a few days after Christmas with at least one incorrect return address on it.

BG:With the marked Happy Holidays, Happy New Year. [Laughter] Or at least it would be for us.

BB:Yes that's it. That's it. I am very thankful for this Thanksgiving week.

BG:Me too.

BB:I'm so thankful for... Well I'm always... I really am... Let me just start with you because you're sitting here, this is getting awkward, the Brown family.

BG:We even share a microphone.

BB:We share a microphone. I just keep thinking we need to approach it like A Star Is Born. I'm in the... You need to come in like... Really...

BG:I'm not going there with you.

BB:OK, whatever. I am grateful to you

BG:Me too, thank you.

BB:You've put up with a lot of craziness.

BG:It is fun.

BB:Once in a while.


(Video) Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - The Anatomy of Trust

BB:It is difficult.

BG:Once in a while.

BB:Yeah, she's really good at that, when I start to cry or I'm like, 'I can't do this, I'm really overwhelmed.' She's really good at that, 'Okay. Well, we don't have to do it, we just can't do it.” And I say, “Of course we have to do it.” “You know what, no, it's all choices, Brené.” That's very good.

BG:Yes that is true.

BB:It is very helpful. So thank you.

BG:My pleasure.

BB:For being my person all the time.

BG:My pleasure.

BB:I'm also just grateful to our broader team.

BG:Oh they are so horny.

BB:God, they're awesome, aren't they?


BB:Like a wonder. I wake up every day and I'm like, "How did that happen?" Like we only had a team of what, 30 people?


BB:And they're just amazing, and it's been tough because we're on a book, we call it a crash, when you hand in a book and the publisher flips it over very quickly, we had a book crash, unpacking pallets and pallets and pallets with books. Literally the UPS employee…

BG:[laughs] He was so grateful that he was on vacation during our book delivery this time.

BB:Yes, because he's just like, "I just can't, I couldn't handle it." Because we get a lot of books here. So today is the 24th if you listen to it the day it came out. The book comes outAtlas of the Heart, 30.11. And we're not doing a traditional book tour this time because it was some sort of COVID stuff I did at a small event last night, it was my first in-person event since March 2020 and it was so much fun.

BG:It was fun.

BB:I was there to win it.

BG:Yes it was really good.

BB:So I can't wait to see you all. Hopefully in 2022 I will come to a city near you.

BG:I'm about to say amphitheater near you, but I don't even know where that came from.

BB:What is it?

BG:I do not know.

BB:Okay, I'm coming to an amphitheater, it's like a rock 'n' roll tour or something.

BG:We need that.

BB:Yes. Me and a rock band from the 80's, we're coming to you. But I'll try to get out in 2022, sure I miss seeing your faces. But this year there is no traditional book tour, we have an event on December 2nd at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time. We work with over 150 independent bookstores in the US and Canada. I have to say that one of the things that's been really difficult for independent booksellers during COVID is that book tours are a big part of their sales strategy, and so are we doing our virtual book tour with them. You can go to the episodes page on and find out how to get a ticket and guess who is, I love who is interviewing me for this and I'm going to chat with Priya Parker who... She's amazing.

(Video) Best Inspirational Speech On BRAVING THE ANATOMY OF TRUST | Dr Brené Brown

BG:And just as a reminder for the book event, you buy a ticket and you get a book.

BB:Yes. And if you've already bought a book, that's okay because you can just buy another book and then gift that book. Do you see how this works?

BG:That's great.

BB:Yes. It's a sale...

BG:Oh my god, and it's a beautiful book. To give it away, I mean, even our team already has their books and everyone's like, 'Oh my god, it's a beautiful illustrated book, it's just so beautiful.' They've never made a four-color book.

BB:I didn't, and it was so much fun, except it got a little sticky there, because they said, "Yeah, we need four more chapters from you." And I say, "I'm going to choose a palette for the quote cards in the book." They say: "Tough shit. We need your chapters." I've really looked into the aesthetic, but it's... It's really nice...

BG:It is wonderful.

BB:Yes, and it's amazing, and a big thank you to everyone who worked on it because that was one thing. So we're going to... For this week's podcast we're going to share the anatomy of trust with you, we've talked a lot about trustDare to lead, we interviewed Charles Feltman, who wroteThe Thin Book of Trust: An essential guide to building trust at work. You know someone told me it's not a primer, it's a primer?

BG:Oh really?

BB:Mm-hmm. I said bullshoit instead of bullshit, but... [laughter] I don't know. I'm just sayingThe Thin Book of Confidence: An Essential Primer Primer for building confidence at work. Barrett and I also did two episodes on trust in the workplace, so I gave a talk at UCLA in Royce HallOprahs Super Soul Sessionswhere I talked about the basics of trust and I really went through BRAVING for the first time. So that's what I'm sharing with all of you this Thanksgiving, and so I think it's helpful because it doesn't use the acronym BRAVING for trust isn't just a matter of work, it's's just a matter of life, right?

BG:Yes even in case you did last night we did bring up parenting and even talking about BRAVING from a parents perspective was so great last night.

BB:Yes, it's very helpful because it's really hurtful when you have trust issues with your kids and you just use that big, flimsy notion of trust. You don't know what it means, we don't even know what it means, but if you can get really granular and behavioral and operationalize the elements of trust and say, 'This is where we struggle' or 'This is where I struggle. “ Super helpful. So have fun if you're celebrating Fall Break or Thanksgiving this week, we're grateful, and here's the anatomy of trust.


BB:That's my intention now, don't cry before you start. Don't cry before you start. To say how grateful I am to be here with you all just feels like an incredible understatement. I feel like I relate to a lot of you on social media and you've been like T minus two days. I say, "It's coming, we'll be together." That's why I'm so grateful to be here with you. I'm going to talk about trust and I'm going to start by saying this. One of my favorite parts about my job is being able to research topics that mean something to me. One of my least favorite parts of my job is that I usually come up with insights that kick my ass and make me change my whole life, that's the hard part. But I can deal with the things that I think are important in my life and in the lives of those around me. And the issue of trust is something I think I probably would have looked at at some point because I'm concerned with shame and vulnerability. But there is a very personal reason why I gained confidence early in my research career, and it was a personal experience.

BB:One day my daughter Ellen came home from school, she was in the third grade and when we closed the front door she literally started sobbing and slid down the door until she was just a pile of tears on the floor and of course I was… It scared me and I said, “What's the matter, Ellen? What happened? What happened?" And she pulled herself together enough to say, "I... something really bad happened to me at school today, and I shared it with a couple of my friends at recess. And when we got back to the classroom came, everyone in my class knew what had happened and they laughed and pointed at me and called me names." And it was so bad and the kids were so disruptive that their teacher even had to take marbles out of this marble jar. And the Classroom Marble Jar is a jar where the teacher adds marbles when the kids make good decisions together, when they make bad decisions the teacher takes out marbles and when the jar fills up there is celebration for the class.

BB:And so she said: "That was one of the worst moments of my life. They were laughing and pointing and Ms. Baucom, my teacher, kept saying, "I'm going to take out marbles." And she didn't know what was going on, and she looked at me and she just did with this face, that burned into my memory saying, "I'm never going to trust anyone again." And my first reaction, to be perfectly honest with you, was, "Damn straight." You don't tell anyone but your mom. Yes, exactly? That's it. That's how it was, you just tell me, and when you grow up and go to school, mom will go too. I get a small apartment. And the other thing I thought, to be perfectly honest with you, was, "I'm going to find out who those kids were." And while I'm not going to spank a 9-year-old, I know their mothers. This is where you go. And I'm like, "How am I going to explain trust to this third year boy in front of me?" So I took a deep breath and I said, "Ellen, trust is like a marble jar." She said, "What do you mean?" And I said, 'You share those tough stories and those tough things that happen to you with friends who have filled their marble tumblers over time. You did one thing after the other where you say, "I know I can share that with this person." Does that make sense?

BB:And that's exactly what Ellen said, "Yeah, that makes sense." And I said, "Do you have marble jar friends?" And she said, "Oh yeah, I'm totally ... Hannah and Lorna are marble jar friends." And I said ... And this is where it got interesting, and I said, 'Tell me what you think, how do they earn marbles for you?' And she says, 'Well, Lorna, if there's no room for me in the lunchroom, she'll come over and give me half a seat.” And I'm like, “She will?” She says, "Yeah, she'll just sit like that and I can sit with her." And I said, "That's a big deal. That's not what I expected to hear." And I said... Then she said, "And you know, Hannah, at my soccer game on Sunday?" And I've been waiting for this story where she said, "Me got hit by a ball and was on the field and Hannah picked me up and ran me to first aid' and I said 'Yes?' And she said 'Hannah looked over and she saw Grandma and Grandpa', my parents , my... her grandparents, and she said, "Look, your grandma and grandpa are here."

BB:And I was like, "Boy, did she get a marble for that?" And she says, "We know not all my friends have eight grandparents," because my parents were divorced and remarried, my husband's parents were divorced and remarried , and she said, "And it was so nice to me that she remembered their names." And I was like, "Hmm." And she said, "Do you have marble jar friends?" And I said, "Yeah, I have some friends from Marble Pitchers." And she said, "Well, what do you do to get Marbles?" And this feeling came over me and I thought, the first thing that came to my mind because we were talking about the soccer game, was that same game my good friend Eileen went up to my parents and said, "Deanne, David, nice to see you." And I remember how that felt to me. And I thought, surely trust can't be built through these little insignificant moments in our lives, it has to be a bigger gesture than that. So as a researcher, I'm starting to look into the data, I'm collecting the graduate students who are with me worked, let's start looking.

BB:And it's crystal clear. Trust is built in very small moments. And when we started looking at examples of people talking about trust in research, they said things like, "Yeah, I really trust my boss, she even asked me how my mom's chemotherapy went." trust the neighbor because if something is wrong with my kid, it doesn't matter what she does, she'll come over and help me figure it out." You know, one of the most important things was about trust and little things, folks, that attend funerals. This is someone who showed up at my sister's funeral. Another big marble jar moment for people: "I trust him because he asks for help when he needs it." How many of you are better at giving help than asking for help, right? Asking for help is one of those moments. One of the ways I work as a grounded theory researcher is that I look at the data first, then go in and see what other researchers are talking and saying about, because we believe that the best theories don't build on other existing theories, they build on ours own lived experiences.

BB:After I looked at that, I said, "Let me see what the research says." And I went to John Gottman, who's been studying relationships for 30 years, he's written an amazing paper on trust and betrayal, and the first, what I read, "Trust is built in the smallest moments." And he calls them sliding door moments.sliding doorsas a film with Gwyneth Paltrow from the 90s. Have you already seen this film? So it's a really tough movie because it follows her life up to the seemingly insignificant moment where she tries to get on a train and she makes the train but the movie stops and splits in two where she does the Train makes and she fails to make the train and follows them to radically different endings.

BB:And he would argue that trust is a sliding door moment, and the example he sets is so powerful. He said he was lying in bed one night, he had 10 pages of his mystery novel left, and he felt like he knew who the killer was, but he was dying to finish this book, so he said, "I know that I don't even want to... I want to get up, brush my teeth, use the bathroom and go back in and not have to get up." I just want... You know that feeling when you just want to calm down and read the end of your book. So he gets up and leaves, he walks past his wife in the bathroom who is brushing her hair and looking very sad and he said, 'My first thought was, just keep going. Just keep walking." And how many of you have had that moment where you're walking past someone and you're like, 'Oh god, they look...' Avert your eyes. [Laughter] Or you're looking at the caller ID or your Pick up the phone and say, "Oh yeah, I know she's in a big mess right now, I don't have time to pick up the phone," right? Yes or no? [Laughter]

BB:That looks like a guilty laugh to me. So he said this is a sliding door moment and here's what struck me about his story because he said, 'There's an opportunity to build trust and there's an opportunity to betray because small as that There can be moments of trust, there can also be moments of betrayal, choosing not to connect when the opportunity presents itself is a betrayal.” So he took the brush from her and started combing her hair brush and said, "What's the matter with you right now, baby?" That's a moment of trust, isn't it? So fast forward five years and I'm clear about trust and I'm talking about trust as the marble pitcher, we really need to share our stories and our hard stuff with people whose pitchers are full, people who, over time, really do did little things that made us feel worthy of our story, but the new question for me was: what are those marbles? What is trust? What are we talking about when we talk about trust? Trust is a big word, isn't it? Hearing "I trust you" or "I don't trust you", I don't even know what that means, so I want to know what the anatomy of trust is? What does that mean?

BB:So I started looking at the research and I found a definition by Charles Feltman that I think is the most beautiful definition I've ever heard and it's just this: "Trust is choosing to making something important vulnerable to the actions of someone else." Choosing to make something important for you vulnerable to the actions of others. Feltman says, "Distrust is what I shared with you that I care about you're not sure about.” So I thought that's true, and Feltman really demands that, let's understand what trust is.

BB:So we went back into all the data to find out; "Can I find out what trust is, do I know from the data what trust is?" And I think I know what trust is, and I put together an acronym, BRAVING, B-R-A-V-I-N-G, BRAVING, because when we trust, dare we connect with someone. So what are the components of trust? B, borders. I trust you. If you know and respect your boundaries, and you know and respect my boundaries, there is no trust without boundaries. R, reliability. I can only trust you if you do what you say and not just once. Reliability. Let me tell you what reliability is in terms of research. We are always looking for things that are valid and reliable. Are there any researchers or research freaks here?


BB:There are ten of us. Okay, so we'd say that a scale you weigh yourself on is valid if you step on it and it's an accurate weight of 120. [Laughter] Okay. So that would be a very valid scale, I would pay a lot of money for this scale. So that's not really a valid scale, but we're going to pretend for that reason. This is a valid scale. A reliable scale is one that says the same thing every time I step on it 100 times. So reliability is doing what you say over and over again. You cannot earn and earn my trust once you are reliable because that is not the definition of reliability. Reliability in our work life means that we have to be very aware of our limitations so that we don't take on so much that we fall short and don't keep our promises.

BB:In our personal life it means the same thing. So if we say to someone, "Oh god, it was so great to see you, I'll call you and we can have lunch." Yes or no? No, "It was really great seeing you." Moment of uneasiness. "Goodbye." [laughter] Right? But honestly, honestly. So B, limits; R, reliability; A huge accountability. I can only trust you if, when you make a mistake, you are willing to admit it, apologize for it, and make amends. I can only trust you if I can admit a mistake, apologize and make amends when I make a mistake. No responsibility, no trust. V... And this one shook me to the core, vault. The bunker. What I share with you you will keep confidential; Anything you tell me I will keep confidential, but you know what we don't understand, and this came up time and time again in the research. We don't understand the other side of the vault, that's just a door on the vault.

(Video) The power of vulnerability | Brené Brown

BB:Here we lose trust in people. When a good friend comes up to me and says, 'Oh my god, have you heard from Caroline? they get divorced And it's ugly. I'm pretty sure her partner is cheating on her.” You just shared something with me that wasn't yours and now my trust is for you, even if you clap and give me the juice now my trust is for you completely gone.


BB:Does this make sense?


BB:So the vault isn't just about you keeping me confidential, it's about my seeing in our relationship that you respect confidentiality. Here's the tricky thing about the vault: We often share things that we don't own to connect with a friend. To the right? If you don't have anything nice to say, "Come sit next to me." That's our...yes or no? As if our closeness was based on talking bad about others. Do you know what I call this? Shared enemy intimacy. What we have is not real. The intimacy we have is based on hating the same people and that's wrong, that's wrong trust. This isn't real.

BB:So the vault means you respect my story, but you respect other people's stories. I, integrity. I cannot trust you and be in a trusting relationship with you unless you act from a place of integrity and encourage me to do the same. So what is integrity? So I came up with this definition because I didn't like any of the ones out there, and that's what I do when I don't like them. That's what I do, I look at the data and I say, “What is integrity?” Here's what I think of integrity: Three parts. It's about choosing courage over comfort, choosing right over fun, quick or easy, and living your values, not just professing your values. To the right? That's integrity.


BB:N, non-judgment. I can fall apart and ask for help and fight without being judged by you and you can fall apart and fight and ask for help without being judged by me, which is really hard because we can help better than we ask for help . And we think we've built trusting relationships with people who really trust us because we're always there to help them, but let me tell you this when you can't ask for help and they can't return it no trusting relationship. Period. And if we make a point of needing help, if I think less of myself for needing help, whether you realize it or not, when you offer help to someone, you think less of them too.

BB:You can't judge yourself for needing help but you can't judge others for needing your help and somewhere in there if you're like me you get value from being the helper in a relationship, you think that's your worth, but real trust doesn't exist unless help is mutual and non-judgmental. The last is G, generosity. Our relationship is only one of trust if you accept the most generous of my words, intentions and behavior and then get in touch with me. So if I make mistakes, say something, forget something, you're going to make a generous assumption and say, 'Yesterday was the one year anniversary of my mother's death and it's been really hard for me and I spoke to you about it last month and I was really hoping you would have called but i know you care about me, i know you think it's a big deal so i want to let you know i've thought about it.

BB:As opposed to not answering calls, not answering emails, and waiting for the moment when you can say, "Well, you forgot to call me on this important..." You become a generous assumption about me do and check it. Does this make sense? So we have boundaries, reliability, accountability, the vault, integrity, judgment, and generosity. This is the anatomy of trust, and it is complex. Why do we have to dismantle it? For a very simple reason. How many of you in here have ever struggled with trust in a relationship, professional or personal? It should be everyone. Statistical. To the right? [Laugh]

BB:And what you end up saying to someone is, 'I don't trust you.' 'What do you mean you don't trust me? I love you, I'm so reliable. What do you mean you don't trust me?” How do we talk about trust when we can't break it? What gives us understanding confidence are words that say, “Here is my fight. You are not reliable with me. You say you'll do something, I'm counting on you not doing it,” or maybe the problem isn't judgmental, but we can break it down and talk about it and be very specific about what we need. Instead of using that giant word that has tons of weight and value wrapped around it, here we can say exactly what doesn't work. What doesn't work is that we have a border problem.

BB:One of the interesting things I think is one of the biggest casualties of heartbreak and disappointment and failure in our struggle is not just a loss of trust in other people but a loss of self-confidence. When something difficult happens in our lives, the first thing we say is, "I won't...I can't trust myself. I was so stupid, I was so naive.” So this acronym BRAVING also works with confidence. So when something happens, I recently had a really bad failure and had to ask myself, 'Did I live up to my own limits? Have I been reliable? Can I rely on myself? Have I held myself accountable? Did I really protect my stories? Have I kept my integrity? Was I prejudiced against myself?”

BB:And when in doubt, have I decided, "Have I been generous to myself?" Because if bold relationships with other people are bold connections, confidence is bold self-love, self-esteem, the wildest adventure we'll ever have in our entire lives. So when you think about trust, I invite you to think about it, if your own marble jar is not full, if you cannot rely on yourself, you cannot ask other people to give you what you do not have . So we have to start with confidence. There's a great quote from Maya Angelou that says, "I don't trust people who don't love themselves but say I love you." Right?


BB:She quoted an African proverb when she said this, and she said, "Be careful of the naked man who offers you a shirt." [Laughter] And so often when you're in a battle of trust, that's what You must first examine your own marble jar, how you treat yourself, for we cannot ask people to give us what we do not believe we are worthy of receiving. And you'll know you're worth getting when you trust yourself more than anyone else. So thank you everyone, I'm so honored to be here. Thank you.



BB:Okay, I hope you all enjoyed this. Kudos and a big thank you to Oprah and the Super Soul team. You can follow thatSuperseelePodcast on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. You know we do both in every episodeunlock usandDare to leadhas a page on… On the new

BG:Yes, the beautiful new Listen.

BB:We up our aesthetic game.

BG:Yes we are.

BB:Yes. Beauty and excellence is one of our values ​​here at BBEARG, which stands for Brené Brown Education and Research Group, but I think about it so much now after interviewing Sarah LewisDare to leadabout aesthetic power and the importance of beauty and aesthetics. yes important So we are on a new website that is so awesome and salute to the team that made this possible.


BB:Big, big, big boost. Don't forget to join usAtlas of the Heartvirtual live launch on December 2nd. And stay awkward, brave and kind, y'all. We are grateful to you. do you wanna say goodbye




(Video) Dr Brené Brown - BRAVING THE ANATOMY OF TRUST - Best Inspirational Speeches

BB: unlock usis a Spotify Original by Parcast. It will be moderated by me, Brené Brown. It is produced by Max Cutler, Kristen Acevedo, Carleigh Madden and Tristan McNeil and by Weird Lucy Productions. Sound design by Tristan McNeil and music by the amazing Carrie Rodriguez and the amazing Gina Chavez.


© 2021 Brené Brown Education and Research Group, LLC. All rights reserved.


1. Unlocking Us With Brene Brown The Anatomy of Trust
(Brené Brown Messenger)
2. Brené Brown Leaves the Audience SPEECHLESS | One of the Best Motivational Speeches Ever
(Motivational Instinct)
3. The Anatomy of Trust
(Emily Oliver)
4. The NUMBER ONE MISTAKE You're Making When Building Relationships... | Brené Brown
(The Outcome)
5. The Anatomy of Trust
(Dynamic Emotion Focused Therapy)
6. Trust and the Anatomy of Trust
(Holistic Healing Choices)


Top Articles
Latest Posts
Article information

Author: Msgr. Benton Quitzon

Last Updated: 07/15/2023

Views: 6157

Rating: 4.2 / 5 (63 voted)

Reviews: 94% of readers found this page helpful

Author information

Name: Msgr. Benton Quitzon

Birthday: 2001-08-13

Address: 96487 Kris Cliff, Teresiafurt, WI 95201

Phone: +9418513585781

Job: Senior Designer

Hobby: Calligraphy, Rowing, Vacation, Geocaching, Web surfing, Electronics, Electronics

Introduction: My name is Msgr. Benton Quitzon, I am a comfortable, charming, thankful, happy, adventurous, handsome, precious person who loves writing and wants to share my knowledge and understanding with you.